Here’s the transcript for episode 001 of the Trauma-Informed Everything podcast:
and I’m Andie and welcome to trauma informed everything.
On this podcast we examine how trauma shapes our individual family and societal experiences.
We demystify trauma and promote a world of trauma informed everything because like it or not trauma informed everything.
As always remember our disclaimer, everything we say is for informational purposes
and nothing on this show is meant to replace treatment from a licensed mental health professional. Thanks for listening and enjoy the show.
Hey, friends, Allison here to share a bit about our Patreon platform.
Here on the podcast. We like to give
you foundational information about trauma and the world we live in. But we continue these conversations and more over on Patreon. On. My favorite thing that we do on Patreon is regular meditations and journal prompts. Both of these practices have been integral to my own healing journey. And I love offering them as resources for our patrons. To access this and more, go to patreon.com slash trauma informed everything. It’s spelled like the name of this show, so it’s easy to find, and you can choose any tear that works for you. Or you can just click the link that says Patreon in the show’s description, I hope to see you there. Today we are talking about what we mean by trauma informed which I think is probably pretty important, don’t you, Andie?
For sure, if we’re going to name our podcast from it informs everything we should probably explain what that means. Totally,
totally. So we realized that we want to take time to do that. That’s really important and honestly, tons of opinions exist about that. So let’s jump in the first thing. We will Want to make sure we acknowledge is that trauma informed care and trauma informed wisdom is not new?
No, not at all.
No, there is indigenous wisdom, ancient indigenous wisdom that was quite trauma informed. They knew about things like embodiment and healing from trauma before it became a clinical thing, which we’re definitely going to get to the clinical stuff. That’s kind of where we started with our education. But it’s really important that we acknowledge that this is not something that a bunch of white dudes showed up in academia and created it was a thing. Yeah, yeah. Well, Andie recently told me about how Dr. Vander kolk, who’s kind of, in our opinion, the educator of all educators, when it comes to just trauma training and treatment and everything. He acknowledges the indigenous wisdom throughout history when it comes to trauma. healing, right?
Yes, yeah, he is very aware that the healing and the processing of trauma goes back for millennia, simply by people paying attention to how their bodies felt, and what tools were useful in making their bodies feel better. They created these ways of handling and naming trauma within their own cultures. And if this is done through, you know, spiritual practices or physical practices, you can go back even to Socrates and Plato and Aristotle and simply by they’re studying the human condition and how the body reacts. They were already touching on trauma concepts. And we see this with Freud and Piaget and young and their study of child development and recognizing
child trauma and childhood trauma. Mm hmm.
Yeah. You know, when We also I want to make sure we say because we are definitely trying to bring trauma education, which can feel very clinical, we always want to bring it into understandable terms. Just know if you don’t know any of those names. It’s cool. It doesn’t matter. It’s perfectly fine. Um, but definitely cool people. They are really cool people. And we’ll probably have future episodes where we just talk about like, where those people took us in terms of trauma informed education, as we when we talk about trauma, not being new. Hello, since the beginning of humanity, we’ve had trauma. And then we talked about being trauma informed not being new because of this indigenous wisdom that we want to fully acknowledge. We can we can bring that forward just a little bit to this guy named Pierre Janae. And I want to read a quote, this is from 1889. Okay, this quote says, as long as people are unable to integrate the memories of the trauma fragments of the experience, keep returning as intense emotions, images, by bodily sensations and as irrelevant behaviors. Okay, I just got chills when I read that. And obviously I’ve read it before I pulled it to put in this part. But it is just, I mean, it’s wild to me that this was, what, 150 hundred and 30 years ago. Mm hmm. And I don’t think I could sum it up any better. You know, and obviously, this was, this was a clinical observation, and it is just as applicable today when I try to explain trauma to people. So even from a clinical perspective, this is not new, but it is pretty new, that we are kind of all talking about it right. And like noticing what happens in our body as it relates to trauma. So
yeah, trauma is definitely being trauma and the term trauma informed is definitely a newer buzzword. Mm hmm.
Yeah, yeah. And well, and let’s talk about the other terms For trauma informed, that’s something else. It’s important for us to talk about because, again, the name of this podcast is trauma informed everything. But there are other ways that people say this. And sometimes they mean similar things, but sometimes they mean other things. So the ones that people like our trauma aware trauma sensitive what else Andie.
trauma, competent trauma trained is a big one right now. I’m certified. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Yeah. And that’s important. It’s important to acknowledge that, you know, those don’t all mean the exact same thing. But it really comes back to this idea of knowing that trauma, especially trauma in early life, early childhood, can affect the way that someone shows up right in the world. Yes.
Mm. Yeah. How they show up how they participate and live integrating themselves into our society. How they parent it the way that we interweave ourselves together is completely affected by trauma whether we have it or not. Yeah.
So, Andie, I wonder if you if you had to pick one of those misses off the cuff for sure. You had to pick so we’ve got trauma informed trauma aware trauma sensitive trauma, competent trauma trained trauma certified. Which one is your favorite? Of course, we use trauma informed the most because it is what was clinical alized. Right, or like, but what’s your What’s your favorite way to describe kind of what we’re trying to do?
Oh, boy, um, that that’s a hard question. Because each of these terms means a different thing. I mean, most of us can. I mean, the goal for me personally, in my quote, unquote trauma activism is for everybody to be trauma aware. Just being aware of something can change how we view the world. You know, trauma training. Obviously means something entirely different, especially when you’re coming into a medical or clinical practice. But I think for me, my favorite is trauma where because that’s my goal personally, is to create a society where we’re all aware of trauma and how it affects our lives in the system that we create.
Yeah, yeah. I like aware, I knew you’re gonna turn it around on me. So I was thinking, I’m gonna have to either. I really like trauma sensitive because so so the others even informed which is our title of our podcast, informed, competent, trained certified, those seem to imply that you have some stamp of approval or you have arrived, right like you have. Like, it’s like, check. It’s like checking a box, right? And being able to add that to your credentials
and think of when you go to the gym and somebody’s working out. And you’re like you did it.
You got there. Yeah, exactly. Like we’re done.
Where’s that? You can you can leave now. Yeah, yeah.
But the thing is someone can someone can say that they’re trauma competent or trauma informed. And well, I have more questions. But when someone says trauma sensitive or trauma aware, like you said, I think that that shows a posture of humility, and it shows a posture of like, I will never arrive at this. And the truth is that even those with with some sort of like certification or stamp of approval, they always have learning to do, right. I only want to work with trauma informed clinicians or people, people who claim that or claim that they know about trauma and are integrating that into their work. I want them to have a posture of even though I know about trauma, and I can like talk about how it shows up in life and in the body, in society and in systems. They’re treating me as an individual, like they’re not pathologizing my trauma so they’re not learning that I have trauma and applying all of these things to me, you know, and making all of these assumptions About me that may or may not be true. We can only learn about very general trauma concepts and treat each other accordingly. And then we’re still going to get it wrong.
Because how trauma affects each each person is as different and unique as they are. Because of the way our brain takes in information and processes it and in our personalities. And so to say that we’re, you know, trauma trained and certified, there’s that expectation of you know, it all. But you may know it all that’s available at this time because the science and research is still so new and trauma, but you still have to learn and learn how to interact with each person individually as they’re in their humaneness, because it’s going to look different in everybody. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, I think of it when I talk about that posture of humility and this idea that will never arrive, you know? We’re both white women. And I’m I don’t know, it just reminds me of how right now you know thank God we are seeing kind of this upheaval and this this awakening of consciousness to racism systemic racism in particular and I think that something I’m having to remind myself of is like, it doesn’t matter if I’ve been you know, reading these books that everyone’s just not reading I’ve been reading them for a few years that doesn’t matter I still have work to do you know, like so whenever I say the words anti racist that’s not a one and done thing you know, when I say that I’m it’s always something that you’re working toward again, you’ll never arrive. So yeah, I think that is really important. As we’re as we’re talking about trauma to, which obviously intersects with systemic racism, like that’s, that’s another episode but it’s really, really important to recognize so
I feel like we’re Gonna be saying that a lot. That’s another episode another episode? I think so i think so. And because this ties into it, it’s another episode because, you know, when we’re talking about things like racism, that’s not something that we can speak to. So we have to make it another episode and bring in somebody who has that knowledge and experience.
Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, so many people are like running through my head right now who would be so great. And
I can’t wait. It’s gonna be
okay. So let’s talk about trauma informed care, because I think when we see trauma informed, like when we see those words, we, I think of clinicians, I think of people who see patients or see clients in a clinical setting. What about you? Like, isn’t that kind of, and that’s where it started, right? What is it usually referring to though, I know we’re going to talk about how we should ask people what they mean when they say trauma informed, but what do people usually mean, Andie? When they say they’re trauma informed or trauma informed?
You know, I see this a bit Because it’s such a buzzword, it’s such a new thing. And trainings are still being developed. When people say trauma informed. I always, like you said earlier, I always want to ask more questions, because, you know, did you read a book? Did you get a certification? Did somebody just give you an explanation of trauma in five minutes and counted at as, you know, a training? I think of like in, you know, continuing education credits for teachers and doctors and nurses and social workers. Is it just something that you did an hour training on? You know, what makes you trauma informed?
Yeah, like, how does that show up in the way that you run your business? Yeah,
yeah, I, I saw this I was making a social emotional group for high schoolers about six months ago and I ran into this YouTube video very short it it did a very short two minute explanation on the amygdala and what it means when you quote unquote flip your lid which you For another podcast, she specifically was addressing it from a customer service standpoint. And it just kind of I sat with that for a minute because I would have never thought to trauma informed customer service. Oh,
yeah. I love that.
I love that. I worked in customer service for 16 years. Yeah, yeah. So but to make that applicable, and how do we train our our, you know, is our cashier trauma informed? Mm hmm.
Yeah, I think that is really good. And I think that just kind of speaks to what we’re what we’re doing here. You know, because I personally, and this is just a statement that Allison is making. But I think that to be trauma sensitive, trauma aware, is to understand humanity on a really important level on a level of on a level that has so much empathy, like it’s one of the most empathetic things you can do is, is become trauma aware and, and live in a trauma sensitive way. And so, yeah, I just I think that that’s a really, really amazing thing to think about it being integrated into customer service. I. And I think if we were to look for examples of that, and certain practices of that we would see it, but only if it benefits those businesses financially,
unfortunately, unfortunately, yeah.
Yeah, even in social work and the medical world, you know, are they becoming trauma informed? Because it’s a buzzword or because they really believe in it.
Yeah, right. Let me see. So but you know, on one hand, it’s getting done. On the other hand, I want to I want to see that evidence of it. You know, I want to see the big cultural change the cultural shift happening as a result of it so so what they’re usually meaning when they say that they’re trauma informed is that they are delivering their services in a way that the practitioner is aware of, and sensitive to the fact that clients or patients have very likely experienced some trauma in their life, right. And so they might use different language, they might avoid certain topics, they might give trigger warnings for lack of a better concept for you know, what’s going to happen in the appointment. I’m thinking about like medical procedures, in particular, they might incorporate consent and agency and choice into there. And we’ll talk more about those for sure in the future, how how just those concepts consent agency choice, incorporating those into the way that we interact with other people and the way that our relationships function, how that is a really, really trauma informed practice.
So adjusting the services as needed, and being aware that your services may cause more trauma.
Yeah, and, and showing up in full acknowledgement of that. Like I think about that all the time. My daughter had a few open heart surgeries in her first year of life and goodness knows that the experiences of those surgery And the experiences that surround those surgeries were trauma, but it was life saving trauma. And that’s not the case. That’s the case in the medical setting. That’s not always the case. I would never pressure someone to like call their trauma good. But I do think that it’s important to arrive at what we’re doing in full acknowledgement that it is causing trauma to someone, and we can we can mitigate that if we are trauma informed, but not not all doctors are trauma informed.
Yeah, not yet, at least. So we’re working on it.
Yeah. So the term trauma informed was around for quite a while prior to this, but it was actually coined in 2005, with the beginning of the National Center for trauma informed care. And so people were using the phrase before that, but yeah, it’s not just a clinical term, though, it’s really important to know that so that was only 15 years ago, and the book that that end and I returned to all the time called the body keeps the score. It was it was only released in 2014. And that was that’s a work that is super comprehensive that brought a lot of this like scholarship into the hands of anybody in the back to buy it and understand trauma on a new important level. So that’s pretty new. So So yes, this is ancient, but a lot of what what we’re talking about in the concepts that we’re talking about, and definitely the term trauma informed. Oh, that’s pretty new.
very new. Yeah. In the body keeps score. And this is what when I was reading the body keep score. I didn’t even like look at when it came out. And I was reading it and in Dr. Vander kolk, talks about the studies that were being done during 911 and how that impacted his book on collective trauma. And I was like, Whoa, yeah, like, I remember that day. That’s how new it is. Yeah. Just to put it into context. That’s six years ago, like my my daughter was being born. Mm hmm.
Yeah, that was when that was when this was public. And yeah, that’s wild, the, you know, the studies around 911 as it pertains to trauma, they come up a lot, and they’re coming up a lot right now with COVID. Like we’re comparing a lot of the research that came out of 911. In terms of PTSD, we’re comparing that to what people are reporting as a result of the pandemic. But it’s so it’s so interesting, because it’s like you could compare but there’s some it’s it’s kind of apples and oranges because pandemic literally means the whole world. And yes, the whole world knew about 911 happening. But it was, it was an it was an epidemic of of trauma for the for the most part speaking generally. So yeah, just to bring it back
for another podcast.
Andie, what’s your favorite book about trauma?
Seriously, do you even have to ask? I mean, Alison, do you even know me? Well, what’s mine
exactly. That’s what I thought. Okay. Okay, how about this? On the count of three? We’re both gonna say our favorite trauma book. Cool. Cool. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Ready? 123
the body keeps score.
I know, right?
It took me months
to finish because there was
so much good stuff to absorb and learn and fly.
Yes, me too. That’s why when I recommend it to people, I tell them to take their time. It’s gonna be a lot. You know what I mean? Oh, totally.
Oh, wait, wait, wait, here’s an idea. Here’s I did hear me out. Okay. You’re ready. Pretty good.
Let’s let’s you and I
get some folks together to read a process and apply the concepts from the body keeps the score.
Hey, why don’t we start in the fall?
Oh, that sounds like a good idea. Okay, okay, but seriously, y’all. This book is thick. It’s important, and it’s key for understanding trauma in the real world. That’s why we’re choosing it for our first ever fall book clubs starting this September.
We’ll have regular online gatherings printables to help you process while you read journal prompts, and more. We want you to get the most out of this incredibly important piece of trauma research. So we’ll be there with you every step of the way. To sign up, click the link in the notes for this show or go to AllisonSweatman.com/fallbookclub.
I want to circle back to something you said earlier about other trauma informed settings like you mentioned, a customer service which that’s super awesome. I think that we need to talk about what we’re seeing lately though with other trauma informed To settings so me and you kind of like met each other in the adoption circle online. And so we’re seeing trauma informed. Definitely. Yeah, that’s that’s kind of how we met. But so we’re seeing we see that a lot we see people talking about being trauma informed in adoption and the need for hopeful adoptive parents to you know, have that in for adoption agencies to make that part of their training. So, what have you seen in terms of having a trauma informed perspective make its way into adoption? We have loads of work to do, but but what but like what have you seen because I because I you see adoption from so many different angles, so adoption, foster care, let’s talk about agency like, like where have you seen it just briefly in terms of adoption, the adoption world?
Well, interestingly enough, I discovered or trauma, the term trauma and the constant was placed in my lap at a foster care training. Michigan about five years ago became a trauma informed state. Wow. Yeah. And it was very, I mean, there’s literally only like a paragraph written about it. But it started this tidal wave in the foster care system of re addressing how we come about foster care how we even start a case where where does the intergenerational trauma start and how that affects, you know, placements and parental support, etc. And that’s, it’s so crucial. So that’s that for me, like, that’s where I started seeing it, and it has grown in Michigan. So this was part of your foster parent training. Yes. Literally. The how it happened was the woman who, quote unquote, trained down this had just two hours prior gotten back from a training on trauma? Yes. And they was not planned. They literally were like, hey, let’s get Michelle and Poehler in. So she can tell us parents while they’re here about this new concept, check that
box and call ourselves trauma informed.
Literally, she came in, she talked about for 10 minutes, or trauma for
Yikes. I mean, you know, better than nothing. I don’t know. Maybe Maybe not.
Obviously, because that’s true.
It sparked something. It sparked something in Andrea causton. So
a lot of tears will start with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yes, it did. And so you know, now it’s changed now we it is integrated into our trainings and you do have to be trained up trauma as a foster parent and how they don’t just train on how it affects the children. They train on the parents in how they’ve experienced trauma and how that replicates itself generations.
That’s so huge I, I get really, particularly in adoption, it’s so important that we center the adoptee experience. But that doesn’t mean we ignore the trauma that everyone else is experiencing, you know, or has experienced before and the fact that that is part of their full humanity that they are bringing into this, this relationship in this family that they’re forming. And so, and we can still fully acknowledge everyone’s trauma at the table while centering while also fully acknowledging that the adoptees trauma is what we we all have the ability to mitigate if we would just listen. So yeah, my, my work my first probably my first introduction to what it means to be trauma informed and everything came from well kind of without knowing it. It was my study of education and special education, which is where a lot of my studying has lived in my in my grad program because You know, I’ve seen things out there about trauma informed classrooms, which is huge and amazing. And I want more of that. I love it. And as it pertains to special education, a lot of times the behavior issues or diagnoses that that children receive, not all the time, of course, but a lot of times a trauma informed classroom could influence whether or not that child is segregated from their general education peers, you know, like having your home informed classroom to understand that, you know, those behavior issues are coming from trauma, or even to consider that just consider it rather than like slapping a diagnosis, and therefore, sometimes this doesn’t happen all the time, but it puts a child on a track to to be separate. You know, I’m forgetting the fact that I’m a proponent of systemic reform that allows far more inclusion of all children with disabilities into the classroom. But as luck with the system we have now a trauma informed classroom could prevent A lot of what I see in terms of like the separation and thereby exacerbation of what a child who has experienced trauma goes through when they go to school like, like school doesn’t have to be re traumatizing for children. You know, like, that’s not too much to ask for. And so that was kind of the beginning of my and and what was really interesting and I’m sure that you can relate to this. Andie is like, when I first realized, oh my goodness, there are people doing research about what a trauma informed classroom could look like, and they’re putting it out into the world. It was it was so exciting. It was so exciting. Yeah. And then you come down because you realize, but no one’s listening to me. You know, like, and so there’s, you realize how much work there is to do. I guess. It’s totally sobering.
It is sobering. I think of you know, you talk about classrooms and immediately I think to myself, about I think I see the connection between the classroom and the foster care system. Hmm, because most cases get reported through school. Mm hmm. And PCs are connected.
Yep. They’re extremely connected. Yeah.
And and you see this, you know, I talked about intergenerational trauma. And you see, you look back, you take the child who’s who’s in the foster care system, and you look at their parents, and they had trouble in school, and they were labeled, and they were separated, and you look at their parents, and it goes back generation to generation, that there’s some sort of negative label put on these, these children. And it’s, and that’s how, you know, we go back to viewing people through a trauma informed lens. I very much when I interact with Foster, in the foster care system, or even in, in my experience in education, or in social work, when I interact with these parents, I start viewing them as the children who are still stuck in the system that they were placed in, in the beginning of education of their education. Such, so much more compassion and empathy for them to say you’re just, I mean, we talked about this in the adoption world too. Even though you’re an adult, you are failed as a child. Mm hmm.
Yeah. And that child that was failed and traumatized is being is being brought forth and, you know, needs being attended to, you know, I’m not saying you treat adults like children, but I’m just saying, That child is still showing up. And they’re not acting like a child when they have these trauma responses. You know, it’s, it’s, this is this is what is happening to their brain, you know, yeah, they might as well still be helpless. You know, they’re not helpless. But it’s, you know, part of part of healing is regaining that agency and, and, like the control you do have in your life and to make your own decisions and to, to move through the world on your own terms. That’s not something that a person who is constantly being Being re traumatized and doesn’t have access to healing. And I’m not saying just therapy but doesn’t have access to healing or different various ways of healing, that that’s what’s happening within them. So, yeah, I think you you make a really good point with, I’m less likely to take offense, I’m less likely to judge I’m less likely to, well, to use a social work term, I can have unconditional positive regard. Right. That’s, I mean, that’s the value of our field of social work. Yes, unconditional positive regard for our clients. And I remember learning about that and learning about what it meant and thinking, Oh, my goodness, like, how about all the time, you know, like, oh, like, and I can’t do that, you know, all the time. But it’s, I think that trauma, being trauma informed helps you have that unconditional positive regard.
Yeah, even when you are standing in the customer service.
And you are frustrated.
Even in those times that just tick you off. Almost, yeah. And so for the most part we’ve been talking about, we’ve touched on systemic trauma. But we, for the most part, have been talking about what it means to on an individual level live a trauma informed life. And that’s a lot of what you know we’re talking about here on the podcast every week is how to apply concepts of trauma to your everyday life and live in a more trauma informed way. And that’ll affect everyone in your sphere of influence everyone in your circle, your family, etc. But it’s also really important to realize how that individual micro level of trauma informed living is completely interconnected to macro level trauma informed living, right, for sure. Mm hmm.
You know, I, I think of an example real quick, you know, thinking, living individually on I was just hit by what you said how it affects our sphere. Mm hmm. Um, and I’m a person of faith. I am a Christian and Think about ministry and I think about this as part of ministry, living with a mindset that affects our sphere of influence. Yeah. And treating them with you know, we call in social work, just, you know, believing in the inherent, the worth inheriting more than
Yeah, every human has inherent worth. And we talk about in about that the Bible speaks on that, but how can we bring that into the trauma informed world and view it very similarly? Because it will affect our sphere in a positive way? Mm hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I find so much overlap in my spiritual practice. And in studying of the Bible, in the life of Jesus, I find little glimpses of trauma informed living from biblical times all the time and then there’s definitely the opposite in the Bible for sure. But you know, that’s that’s an example of what you know, humanity is capable of when we’re not hearing each other as fully human, right?
Yeah. So when we’re when we’re thinking about systems and spheres of influence and the way that our individual trauma informed living affects and is connected to the same in our systems, it’s also really important to recognize that we can, with those systems and with the policies within those systems help prevent societal traumas and macro level traumas. So it’s really important to us to not just talk about how you can learn about trauma and it can help you be a better parent, be a better spouse, be a better partner, be a better employer or whatever business owner. It’s not just about you, it’s not just about me, it’s not just about Andie it’s, it’s it’s a bigger way of looking at the whole world and the way that we create this world that we live in, so we have to work to prevent those societal traumas as we are working to prevent those micro traumas on an individual level. So that’s a more holistic, macro level way of living a trauma informed life. And I think, to me, it’s a matter of integrity to always be working between those two, right? We’re working between like, What does what is what you know about trauma? How is that influencing the way that you treat? The person who’s checking out your groceries at the grocery store? How is it influencing the way that you treat your child and your partner? And then also, how is it influencing how you vote? How’s it influencing how you advocate? Yeah,
yep. And how you view you know, when I, this is just my personal practice, but when I’m voting, I very much think of the people then these things and these politicians we vote for, what the effect that they’ll have on those systems all the way from the macro level to creating these systems. All the way down to that individual. micro level. Yeah,
for sure. Yeah. And we’ve got to have all of that. So when we’re talking about trauma informed, we’re not just talking about, you know, the way it can help you and the way it can help us on an individual level. It’s got it’s got to be bigger than that. So,
you know, we’re sitting here talking about micro and macro. And I’m realizing that such a social work term.
Yeah, so real quick, explain what micro
micro is, is what I said. It’s like the individual understanding that we have and in social work, micro work would be more clinical work, usually not all the time. But usually it would be like one on one therapeutic relationships with a clinical social worker, someone who works on cases for individuals or even families, that’s considered micro work. And so someone with a private practice has micro work, but in social work, we’re always away And always looking to influence the macro level systems. So we’re talking about government systems and policies that affect the clients that we are serving on those micro levels. Because you can’t separate those two, you can’t you can’t divorce, you know, what’s happening in the therapy room from what’s happening in global politics. Like I was I almost said federal politics. I was like, no, it’s actually even bigger, you know, like, yeah, and so the way that all those systems affect one another, and then the way that they affect the individual, it’s just really important to always show up with in full acknowledgement of that. And I’ll try not to harp on it too much. But it really it really is not something that you can unsee once you see it,
right. It really is not because you start thinking that, you know, we can sit here and we can focus on the very center of the web and how it it just affects us. But then once you start to get this bigger vision, you see how policies and systems affect your own individuel life in ways you ever thought of for sure. And if they if they seem not to, that’s what we call privilege.
If the policies seem to not affect you at all, that that might be a good working definition.
And it’s something that we need to sit with. And we need to acknowledge So, cool. Thanks for helping me unpack that, Andie. I really appreciate it. I’m here for you.
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